This is a follow-up to my earlier posts (here and here) regarding the alleged threats made against Sen. Dan Kotowski and the resultant Illinois State Rifle Association myopic “Who-Me?” spin on the matter.
Sen. Kotowski introduced his legislation during the spring and gun lobbyists (and the activists linked into those lobbyists) went to work right away using their First Amendment rights. That’s democracy in action and even if I don’t agree with a person’s position, God bless ‘em for speaking up! Based on political journalist Rich Miller’s earlier post, it seems there were also several people who took the opportunity to go several steps further and sent in thinly veiled threats. Were they threats of bodily harm or simply electoral strife? That’s up to the justice system to decide; but Sen. Kotowski’s staffers culled through the hundred and hundreds of contacts received and transferred those that gave them the heebie-jeebies.
But even further outside the realm of rational society (beyond the tripe some folks choose to claim is ‘free speech’) another batch of possible criminals actually specifically threatened the Senator’s life — threats clearly credible enough that the Illinois State Police launched an investigation.
Enter the ISRA this week with their war of words.
In a way, I don’t blame the ISRA for trying to get out ahead of this story with their press releases since charges being file, let alone a conviction, could reflect so badly against them (both politically and socially). They are a political animal and need to do something in order to continue to exist lest they dry up and shrivel away in a morass of irrelevancy.
For better or worse, Mr. Pearson has managed to do a good job innoculating ISRA against any forthcoming events in the death threat investigation by distracting the ISRA’s most ardent supporters and goading them into thinking this is somehow an issue of 1A rather than basic human decency.
Loathsome and unfortunate as it is that Mr. Pearson chose that route instead of taking the high road of trying rein in some of the hyperbole and anger, chose it he did.
Indeed, it’s sick that some people take this “forward in revolution” politicking so seriously they’d make such threats, even if they end up being hollow. (God forbid the alternative … the Senator’s own family, including his mother, volunteers in his political office at times.)
As the course of this week has shown, a great many conservative and supposedly libertarian bloggers have jumped on the ISRA bandwagon by regurgitating their press release from Monday (and the follow-up release from Wednesday). The ISRA press release, as you would expect a partisan propaganda piece to do, accuses Sen. Kotowski of attempting to intimidate people (via the Illinois State Police) because they expressed their first amendment rights via a form-letter fax campaign organized by interests favoring liberal, unrestrictive gun laws. But clearly it was an attempt to miss the point, as the truth of the matter does not support that partisan claim. Several rational folks have erred on the side of critical thinking instead of swallowing the ISRA line wholesale, including these gun owners who quickly admonished a copy-and-paste job at an outdoorsmen’s blog.
Actually, it was at least one person in particular, perhaps more, that were attempting to intimidate Sen. Kotowski by allegedly phoning in death threats. And in cases of threats to bodily harm, the first amendment does not apply (there’s that whole “peaceably” part that Thomas Jefferson added).
Instead, the police get called … and they investigate the threat to determine the potential for violence. It happened in Virginia as police found bombs concealed in a religio-conservative’s car trunk. It happened in DC as police found a map with sniper sightlines drawn out in the possession of a conservative anti-immigrant counter-protestor.
And now it appears to have happened here in Illinois with alleged threats against a Senator’s life. All because people are being pushed further and further by red-hot rhetoric.
It’s pretty simple stuff really. The police were doing their job — they could care less about faxed form letters advocating one opinion or another because they wanted to get to the bottom of the threats. Much has been made of the one anonymous person noted in the ISRA press release whose fax was apparently not threatening, but who was visited by police anyway.
The police investigate as many leads as they can — and even track and ask questions of innocent people. That is standard operating procedure and part of conducting a thorough investigation. In fact, undercover Illinois State Police were observing the actions of family and friends at the wake held last night for the Vaughn mother and children; after having also interviewed family and friends who had nothing to do with the shooting whatsoever.
Sadly the ISRA’s staunchest backers have become so polarized in the zealotry provoked by months of vitriolic groupthink that upon reading the ISRA’s press release they didn’t even blink to consider the possibility the police were simply doing their job, investigating alleged threats. Ignoring that basic fact only serves to promote so much political spin at the expense of honesty and common sense.
For those readers who don’t realize that threats of violence aren’t covered by the first amendment, read up on your high school civics classes.
For those others who promote ever more liberal gun laws and a free flow of any and all arms, the nation is of two minds on that matter, as this Constitutional essayist discusses. That someone, even a legislator, disagrees with your point of view is not a rational reason for threatening their life.
Shame on the ISRA and other gun lobbyists for working to turn decent, law-abiding, otherwise rational gun owners into hard-liners who are so juiced up on the gun lobbyists’ rhetoric of smears, vitriol and lies that they would take the uncivilized, irrational step of actually threatening someone’s life.
That’s no longer “law-abiding”. People making such threats actively exempt themselves from the Bill of Rights, notably the first.
Moreover, the ISRA, NSSF, and others no longer are representing decent, law-abiding citizens as they claim. To be sure, there may be such folks still among their membership, but unless and until gun lobbyists and fellow gun owners strongly, clearly and repeatedly denounce such threats and work to pull those who would make threats back into the fold of civilized society the rest of us mainstreamers can only presume they too silently endorse such unlawful tactics.
There are any number of means to make one’s opinion known in our democratic society. Threatening to kill someone should not be accepted as one of them, yet gun owner blogs are chock full of provocative comments about putting bullets in someone’s head; defending self-declared liberties with the cartridge box; getting rope to hang someone from a tree; and similar.
The next step actually is murder and assassination. And if guns don’t kill people, but people kill people using guns — one would have to ask who incited the person wielding the gun?
To truly bear witness to the claim of advocating “safe, lawful and responsible firearms ownership”, Richard Pearson must step up to the plate and have the ISRA take on a level of responsibility as a leader by working to either tone down the acrid environment and bring those who would threaten others back into civil society or demand they be denounced and ostracized lest they act out their aggressions or incite others to do so in the worst possible way.
Until then, the ISRA leadership apears to be two-faced hypocrites. …Attacking a priest for using inflammatory rhetoric but ignoring their own vitriol. …Seemingly trying to cling onto some vestige of power or influence at any cost, including overtly partisan press releases which deliberately miss the point and month after month of smearing someone just because they disagree with their position.
That’s just pathetic and, given their months-long campaign of inciting an ever deeper frenzy, it may be potentially quite dangerous.
There is a clear pattern here. Normal, everyday folks, likely as genteel as can be, become activists as they grow concerned about one issue or another, or maybe a whole host of issues. They tune into like-minded folks and maybe join a group or two. Depending on who they start paying attention to … the rhetoric or the groupthink or the single-mindedness or something starts pushing some of those people over into the abyss as they fall from civil society into incivility and beyond, to criminality.
I certainly understand gun owners (from the most hard-line strident to the most mushy-middle moderate) wanting to have their say and I certainly respect that even as I disagree in part with their claims that any oversight whatsoever is heresy. Like a majority of Americans and Illinoisans I favor reasonable supervision over a completely free flow of weapons every which way; the ISRA’s most hard-line supporters obviously differ.
But telling a guy you’re going to bring a firearm and kill him? …F’ing ridiculous, whether you’re a gun owner or not.
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June 23, 2007 at 6:10 am
Deaner
TRY TO BE MAN ENOUGH TO LEAVE THIS POST UP.
AMERICAN COPS ARE DOING EVERYTHING THE COMMUNIST COPS ONCE DID: http://chickenshitwellsandelko.blogspot.com
Note from Rob Nesvacil, July 03, 2007: This post was originally caught by the blog’s spam blocker but here it is now for everyone’s “enjoyment”.
Not sure why a guy from Nevada (Deaner) is so concerned about Illinois politics but to each their own, no? As explained, the cops were sent out because Mr. Kotowski received contacts — via phone, fax, etc — which his staff felt were threatening. Rather than act like vigilantes they called the cops. The cops investigated. It’s pretty routine.
And when people start disappearing into the backs of police paddywagons, then American cops will be doing “everything” the Communist cops once did… Oh wait, the Bush administration already is dumping people at Gitmo, CIA spy planes in Eastern Europe and wherever else they can. Nothing like some good ol’ fashion red-baiting though, eh?
June 23, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Don Gwinn
1. Actually, the ISRA has been disturbingly un-political for a long time. Even though they maintained a lobbyist in Springfield, everything they did was defensive. It took a lot of kicking in the ass before the ISRA decided to take any steps that might be considered going on the offensive to try to get what we want, rather than trying to stop people like Kotowski from taking any more away from us than we’ve already lost in Illinois.
Until a year or two ago, the ISRA gave most of us the impression that if they could just run their rifle ranges and handle NRA administrative work for Illinois they’d be overjoyed.
This is a welcome change.
2. I’d really like you to post some examples of the exhortations to murderous frenzy you keep saying the ISRA is putting out. What specifically has the ISRA done or said that they should have foreseen would lead to political assassinations in Illinois? I really want to know. I was an ISRA member for awhile, and I don’t remember getting anything about killing people.
3. Yes, threatening people is criminal, stupid, and evil. The question the ISRA raised was whether Kotowski used that fact to justify using the police to intimidate his political opponents.
June 23, 2007 at 1:35 pm
William L. Calhoun
I would like to see Mr.Kotowski destroyed by the ballot box,yes votes,voters.free(for now) citizens of Illinois. Will I receive a visit from Barny. Should I. Give us quotes from the I.S R A. that can be called death threats….I said the I.S.R.A. not some nut case fringe ellement….When my rights are gone it will not be long before people like Mr. Kotowski will be infringing on those rights that you enjoy.
June 23, 2007 at 2:34 pm
Kent McManigal
“…That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends (certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness), it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it….But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government …..We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. ….”
Yes, I know, I “cut and pasted” the previous sentences from an old document that may not be relevent today. I just did it for fun.
June 23, 2007 at 2:57 pm
robnesvacil
Don and William, on Don’s point #2, when did I say the ISRA suggested folks start threatening peoples’ lives? I didn’t.
What I did say was that their smear tactics (and those of the likes of the NSSF, the 2A blogs and forums, etc.) are clearly pushing some people towards the extreme. These alleged threats are a consequence of that vitriol.
(I documented the smears in a post a few weeks back, before these threats and the resulting police investigation were made known. My post was roundly dismissed by gun enthusiasts who chose irrational partisanship over common sense.)
You can choose to ignore the history behind such domestic terrorists as Tim McVeigh, Eric Rudolph and the like (who were goaded into their actions by acrid rhetoric). That is your right as an American.
–
Kent, try voting first. If your guy loses the election and you just can’t accept the will of the people then move to a state, or a country, more to your liking.
We already fought the Revolution in this country.
We won.
It’s the Tim McVeighs of America that think a new revolution is in order any time they don’t get their way.
Notice in 2000’s disputed election, nobody pulled out guns and started shooting at the other side. We all let the law and due process take its course and, even if begrudgingly, we ultimately all accepted the outcome.
Welcome to America, we already threw off absolute Despotism once by gun. With the exception of the deadliest war in America’s history in the mid-1800s, we have thrown it off by the ballot box ever since.
June 23, 2007 at 7:27 pm
William L. Calhoun
When your article speaks of Rich Millers post and thinly veiled threats,Sen.Kotowski’s staffers and their heebie-jeebies (define heebie-jeebies) and other referrences. Why would any non rational and uneducated individual/s not think that the I.S.R.A. of which I am NOT a member is somehow not responsible for any and or all angst regarding Mr.Kowtowski and his blatant disregard for the Constitution….
To me the heebie-jeebies would be a childish feeling much like that which permeats the Left wingers due to their fear of a free populace.
June 25, 2007 at 7:28 am
c-rockjr121
First off ,
is it one person, or many people?
It doesnt make sense. The guy got one threat before, now you are saying many threats.
He is back peddling in my eyes. Nothing but a low down dirty gun grabber, who would lie to save his own ass.
June 25, 2007 at 9:15 am
robnesvacil
Bill and C-Rock,
The 1st Amendment affords you the right to believe whatever your pretty li’l hearts desire.
Good luck with that.
June 25, 2007 at 12:45 pm
c-rockjr121
Well,
at least I am not standing with a man who wants to disarm his fellow American. Your Dan the Ban does. Why you stand and assoicate with such, I do not understand.
Why do you fear your fellow American? Why do you lay your sword down to the government?
June 25, 2007 at 2:17 pm
c-rockjr121
I’m ready at last to support gun control. I believe every police agency in the United States – local, state and federal – should be disarmed.
After all, the gun-control people have been saying for years that we private citizens have no need for firearms. Well, if that’s true for us, it’s true for the police. We are the inhabitants of the country. We live in the neighborhoods, we are the victims of crime, and if we don’t need guns, then who does?
I’ve yet to hear of a police officer being mugged or raped, and certainly not an FBI agent, as the feds spend most of their time in offices, except on weekends and holidays.
The Secret Service doesn’t need guns. Look at the bad record it has. Even with guns, we’ve lost more heads of state than any industrial nation I can think of. If somebody tries to shoot the president, the agents can stand in front of him. Whether they do so promptly or with slow deliberation will probably depend on the personality of the president. It’s safer that way for everyone concerned.
We will still need tough penalties for those who use guns to commit a crime, but as soon as criminals realize they’re not going to be shot by the cops, many of them will ditch their guns. Why risk an extra-heavy prison sentence when all you really want to do is steal something?
Naturally, police could still carry pepper spray and clubs. I wouldn’t even object if they wanted to carry a pocketful of rocks for throwing. If you practice, you can get to be a pretty accurate rock thrower.
I believe this effort is necessary to stop the militarization of our police. Some police departments these days will turn out a crew of people who look like Darth Vader, with bulletproof vests, masks, helmets, submachine guns, sniper rifles, hand grenades, etc., even if the call is for some little old lady who had too much to drink or a mouse heard in a gun store.
There is a fundamental problem with Special Weapons and Tactics teams (SWAT). They train more than they are ever needed, and therefore they begin to show up when they really aren’t needed. For example, if there is a rowdy drunk in one apartment, you don’t have to empty out the whole apartment building.
In saner days, a policeman, usually wearing a plaid jacket and rayon slacks, would go to make an arrest with only a snub-nosed .38 in his coat pocket. If he had to, he’d shoot you, but he didn’t show up yelling and cursing. He came on reasonable and friendly, and tried to talk you into surrender. Most of the time it worked.
Nowadays, if one guy wants to off himself, a whole SWAT team will show up, block off the street, tie up traffic and diddle around for hours. I’ve never understood why police wish to interfere in somebody’s suicide in the first place.
Naturally, I know that we once had a better class of criminals in this country. Even in the heyday of gangsters like Bonnie and Clyde, they were generally careful not to shoot civilians, and there was practically no crime against ordinary people. My cousins and I, even when we were not long past the toddler stage, often went to downtown Atlanta on the trolley and spent a pleasant and safe day.
I suppose, with our society growing increasingly authoritarian, there is no hope for disarming the police. Well, then, leave the guns for private citizens alone. If the sorry, no-good criminals are going to act without restraint, then let’s make sure the few remaining good people can defend themselves.
June 23, 2007
Charley Reese [send him mail] has been a journalist for 49 years.
June 25, 2007 at 2:22 pm
ArchPundit » Blog Archive » Daily Dolt—OF THE YEAR
[...] Check out Rob’s last post on this over at Illinois Reason. The comments are illustrative of the problem. When your article speaks of Rich Millers post and thinly veiled threats,Sen.Kotowski’s staffers and their heebie-jeebies (define heebie-jeebies) and other referrences. Why would any non rational and uneducated individual/s not think that the I.S.R.A. of which I am NOT a member is somehow not responsible for any and or all angst regarding Mr.Kowtowski and his blatant disregard for the Constitution…. To me the heebie-jeebies would be a childish feeling much like that which permeats the Left wingers due to their fear of a free populace. [...]
June 25, 2007 at 9:00 pm
c-rockjr121
Well,
you all do fear your fellow American. Your fellow Illinoisian.
You fear them, for they own guns. Maybe its what you fear in yourself, and you project it onto others.
I dont know.
But bills from dan the ban, would stop folks from defending themselfs. This man knows what a AK is used for. Home defense.
Personal protection from those with evil intent. Plus why do lefties want to ban the AK? If this man was in Dan’s dream of Illinois, he would of been charged with a crime, or disarmed. Shame on those who would disarm folks in their home.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/…0,1568544.story
The victims of a violent home invasion early Thursday turned the table on their attackers, killing one of the suspects with an assault rifle and stabbing another.
Three armed men stormed through the unlocked front door of the home on Muscatello Street in the Peppermill subdivision near Hunter’s Creek at about midnight.
The five men and one woman who live there, most of whom are students at the Motorcycle Mechanics Institute, scattered as the suspects began ransacking the home, according to the Orange County Sheriff’s Office.
One of the victims grabbed an AK-47 semi-automatic rifle and hid in a closet. When he heard one of the gunmen fire two rounds into the house and then try to force his way into the closet, the victim fired three shots through the closet door and killed the 21-year-old suspect, authorities said.
June 26, 2007 at 10:55 am
Tango7
Wasn’t there an example in a southern state (TX perhaps) that was considering CCW legislation a few years ago, where the president of the State Senate (who was against the CCW bill) relayed a “threat” related to the bill, causing a mobilization of the capitol and state police, and suspending normal senate business for several hours?
IIRC, the “threat” was later found to be one against his holding office by his son-in-law’ it was worded “If you vote against it, I’ll make sure you never hold a seat again”, and the CCW legislation never made it to a vote that session. I’m sure it was just a oversight - much like the WI assembly president who “forgot” that CCW was being discussed in 2002 and gaveled the year’s session to a close with a bill still under discussion.
More proof that totalitarians will use whatever means at hand to further their agenda.
Historically, the ICHV is notorious for the flagrant use of tailored or so-called “cherry picked” data (nearly 100% non-reproducible in nature) to support their positions, as well as the use of intentionally misleading headlines in their press releases.
Is it any real stretch of the imagination that Sen. Kotowski (their former director) might continue those tactics in his new position?
After all, the illusory “threat” posed by Kotowski’s supposed caller is worth much more to the antis as a bogeyman to illustrate the “crazy gun wackos” stereotype than as an actual criminal to be punished. This way any legislator with half a grain of reserve about this proposal can help the totalitarians push their agenda down the throat of the state with a clean conscience.
As several senators said after the vote - “The speaker in favor of the bill was very compelling”. It didn’t really matter what the data suggested. The totalitarians are using unarguable sentiment rather than disprovable data to further their agenda of control.
June 26, 2007 at 12:29 pm
William L. Calhoud
Pretty little hearts….How quaint, though expected.
June 26, 2007 at 2:13 pm
robnesvacil
Again, who is trying to take away any guns you already own?
The bills in question have significant grandfathering provisions allowing current owners to keep their weapons. (Some might call these loopholes, others see it as simple means of allowing owners to keep their guns.)
Moreover, these are hardly comprehensive “gun bans” by any means. They deal with a few particular types.
–
William, for all the myopic whining being done on this and other blogs by your comrades “pretty little hearts” is entirely appropriate. I’ve said it before — you guys sound like little girls about to have your dollies taken away (except that, as I’ve repeated I don’t know how many times, the grandfathering petitions allow you to keep the guns in question).
–
Tango7, The Illinois State Police investigation will determine whether or not fraud has been committed. By the reaction (the preemptive press releases from the ISRA) it looks as though the threats were real and the ISRA and their sycophants (here and elsewhere) are trying to muddy the waters.
A smooth political move, if not a viable or respectable social move.
June 26, 2007 at 5:43 pm
William L. Calhoud
Grandfather your First ammendment rights to your children after which your grand children will have no such right….After all”The pen is mightier than the sword(firearm). When a right is taken away and that is what this is all about it matters not that I and others of like mind retain this or any other right what matters is that your philosophy would eventually take every right away in time.
I am not servile or kissing the arse of any powerfull individual or group….That is for political hopefulls. However I will not permit the rights of my fellow citizens to be trampled on by well intentioned though woefully ingnorant or with malicious intent….I know not why you think as you do so I will not judge you only your ideas.
On December 16,1966 I did not whine and run off to Canada as many cowards did, I enlisted so do not call me a whiner nor a hero….Yes they were COWARDS as I served with three Mormons who were para rescue and refused to carry weapons into a combat zo,two of them were badly wounded as a result they were HEROES….Yes it was a lousy war which we were winning in the field but lost due to a hostile press and incompetent polititions on both sides of the aisle.
Those who surrender their right to self defense deserve whatever happens to them and their decendants.Do you really think your government cares about you other than to what use you can be put to maintain the status quo…..Those in power must respect us and if they do nt we must teach them to fear for their cushy and verrrrrry leucrative jobs(the ballot box)….
June 27, 2007 at 8:01 am
c-rockjr121
Grandfathering?
What the hell you been smoking over there in your garden Rob? Do I need to call the DEA on you, and have them bust up your “organic garden”?
First off, its bad enough I am registered with the state thru my FOID. Now you want me to fill out forms for each of my guns? You dont know what folks in Chicago go thru. They have your so called “registration”
They get their guns stolen from crooked cops, and confiscated too. I aint going to put my family thru such. And if you tell me the CPD are choir boys, I am going to tell you to stop smoking so much after that.
Plus did that stop all the crime in Chicago? I think not. Gun control causes crime.
Plus the registration is going to cost 300 million, if not more. Money we could use to fix cook county. Or the CTA.
Plus,
you only have 90 days to register after inactment. there are 1.5 million FOID holders. I would guess each have a average of 3-5 guns. There is not enough government workers at the ISP who could process that much paperwork.
Plus you have a state government, after 9-11-
WHO WANTS TO GIVE BENEFITS TO NON-CITIZENS, WHILE ASKING FOR MORE LAWS ON CITZENS.
That is the moral question Rob. Think of who you are siding with. Are you siding with Illegals, or with your fellow American??
I ask you to pray to your god too. I know there is some good left you in you Rob. Just have to let it come out. The dark side of “progressivism”is a path none should follow.
Siding with them , will just get you slavery. Your projected fears onto gunowners is wrong. We are Americans just like you. We are not terrorists. We have rights, and we are standing up for them.
Bottom line, this fight is not over. We shall overcome. As long as the state keeps on going into the shitter, and taxes go up, we will still keep on winning. Now this summer we go onto the offensive. Come July 1st, are state will shut down!!! WooHoo!!!!
Wolverines!!!
c-rock
June 27, 2007 at 3:57 pm
robnesvacil
Now you’re quoting from Star Wars and Red Dawn…?
Try a bit less adrenaline dude.
June 27, 2007 at 9:40 pm
papabear479WLC)
Be much more rational and factually correct about grandfathering….Sir.
June 28, 2007 at 7:58 am
c-rockjr121
I wanted to have fun with my post. It sounded good Rob. Again,
who do you side with? Illegals, or your fellow Americans? I was born here Rob, I do not deserve this. No one does.
Plus your democrat gods are bickering still. July 1st is a commin.
What do you mean papabear? This yrs round of gun ban bills, there were only 90 days of grandfathering after enactment. After that, you were cut off from ever registering them.
On the mag ban bill, there was grandfathering, but you needed to provide proof of ownership before the ban. For myself, I have mags from gifts and trades that I cannot prove such. Plus if you were pulled over going to the range, and cannot provide proof on the spot, your going to jail. The cop could say prove it at court. Which will cost you $1000s to defend yourself at.
Plus do not think you wont be pulled over going to the range. Ask the folks last year pulled over comming from Gun World. Seems the folks with Chicago addresses got hassled on Irving from the CPD when leaving the range.
Instead of going after crimials, like gangs, they go after folks having fun at the range. Tryanny that will increase state wide when bills like these are called “common sense”, and good for the “people”.
June 28, 2007 at 11:50 am
papabear47(WLC)
Well aware of the 90 day clause.However grandfathering is only another way of destroying the 2A. And knowing our poliotical crew it would soon be overridden in favor of a complete ban on any type of firearm after the first mass shooting anywhere in the known galaxy(sarc)
As far as the magazine capacity ban is concerned even my cousin a retired ISP captain and rabid anti gun cop has told me that you are innocent until proven guilty and the state would have to prove that you did not own those mags before the ban,and yet he fails to see that the 2A is valid. Think of it this way,is that your computer,is that your lawn mower,is that your toilet bowl and so forth. When the time comes that we have to prove ourselves innocent of any offense we will no longer be a Republic or citizens thereof we shall have become servants of the state at best subjects. Chaos would ensue.
I do not see this happining any time soon as even this SCOTUS would overturn such a blatently Unconstitutional action.
Any restriction on our Constitutional rights will in all probability become permanent. As new generations appear and live without those rights and the older generations die off more and more will be taken away until only subservience is left,a duty to surrender your soul if you will to the state. After all you cannot miss the rights that you never had or possibly never heard of
As far as illegal are conserned I believe this is just another way of destroying the middle class . Why GW is pushing so hard for this and the North/South American Union may be part of an overall plan to create a massive underclass dependant upon big government Just one of mant theories.
June 28, 2007 at 2:02 pm
robnesvacil
I suppose you guys would be just as interested in standing up for perjury, libel, fraud, slander and other forms of now illegal “free speech”, correct?
Just because you believe there ought not to be any reasonable supervision at all doesn’t mean others inherently agree.
Papabear and C-Rock, when you start standing up for folks who wrongly yell “Fire” in a crowded theater when there is non (inducing panic and chaos), then you’ll have a point.
June 28, 2007 at 2:20 pm
c-rockjr121
There are more laws than needed in IL for guns. Plus mix in the Fed laws, and you have enough. Plus there has not been any real conceal carry laws put in place in IL.
It can take you 1-2 months to get your FOID. You have to wait 24/72hrs for a gun. Chicago has all of the gun banners wet dreams in laws. Has had them since 1968. Still hear about shootings each night from that town too. Kids are killing kids. None of those kids are able to learn about firearms from a professional. Just from felons and hip hop.
Felons caught with guns, dont get time. The Fed does not charge them with a crime. Nor does the state.
Just recently, a man mugging kids with a gun at Northwestern Univ, got probation for such. That is not going to stop crime.
I am standing up for the ISRA Rob. I am standing up fro those people who were hassled by the ISP, for faxing Dan the Ban. I am standing up for my fellow Patriots. Folks who stand for FREEDOM.
Try it some time Rob. Come out from your cave. Live a life without fear of your fellow American. Maybe pray to your god, and get rid of that fear. It comes thru in your blog. You fear folks different that you.
June 28, 2007 at 3:34 pm
papabear47(WLC)
From wence doth thou draw thine conclusions.In short how can you construe anything that we have said as condoning libel,fraud,slander or any violations of Constitutional law. The Constitution is the supreme law of this country and any statute which violates it is meaningless.That is why we have courts,without which we would have tyrany. I will follow those laws on the book and I will also voice my opinion concerning those laws which I find violate The Constution and do my best to have those laws changed. You may not agree with me but please do not insult me or my intelligence with such juvinile accusations as it shows very pore form…. Thank You.
June 28, 2007 at 10:01 pm
robnesvacil
C-Rock,
Did you ever stop to consider that the kids killing kids in Chicago are getting their guns from your “wet dreams” (your term) in the suburbs where gunshops can sell firearms to non-felons who in turn illegally re-sell them to gangbangers…?
The kids killing kids get the guns because they are easy to get in America.
–
Papabear said, “The Constitution is the supreme law of this country and any statute which violates it is meaningless.”
Thus you must oppose those statutes which forbid or curtail “libel,fraud,slander”[sic].
I didn’t say you had committed those acts, I said you logically must support them since the statutes which make them illegal in this country run counter to the First Amendment’s right to free speech. Or do you have some magical loophole in your own logic?
June 29, 2007 at 8:21 am
c-rockjr121
Again Rob,
look at your wording. Fear comes out. Plus your talking out your ass.
selling to non-felons? Dude, WTF is that wording comming from? Do you see every american as just a potential criminal?
Even still, your still wrong that a gun shop in the burbs can sell to non-felons. They cannot sell to non-felons.
A “non-felon” like yourself (Your Wording), cannot go into a gun store, and buy a gun. Untill that “non-felon” has a FOID (Firearm Owners IDentification Card), which means he or she is checked out by the ISP, then you can buy one. which means they do not have a felony record either. So please stop attacking law abding gunowners with that wording.
Untill then, you cannot even handle a gun in a gunstore without a FOID.
Even if someone did that, resold it to felons/kids- they then are committing a crime. State and Federal.
On the state level, if you do not keep a record of the sale for 10 yrs, or respect our 24/72 hr waiting period, you are committing a crime.
If you are selling a gun to felon, you are up for federal charges.
Plus if it is used in a crime by a felon, you are facing that too.
Kids getting guns, is not the gun stores fault. Its the parents. A good example is the CTA bus shooting.
A 15 yr old kid gave a 16 yr old kid a gun. Aint no law going to stop that. Talk all out of your ass on that one, but the laws already didn’t do squat. I could count off tons of laws that were broken.
That 16 yr old had such evil in his heart to do such on the bus. Would of he of tried if he knew someone else could be armed on that bus, who could shoot back? I would like to think yes on that. Chicago has problems, because bad people know good folks aint armed. And the cops aren’t around, or are crooked.
so tell me what law is going to stop those crimes, if 40 yrs of laws havent done it already?
June 29, 2007 at 8:23 am
c-rockjr121
I forgot,
when you get your FOID, you are given a copy of the FOID Act/Laws of IL on guns.
So a person who is responsible, knows the laws of IL. If they choose to break them, they cannot claim igorance of the law.
June 29, 2007 at 8:34 am
c-rockjr121
On a lighter note,
we need rifles, and mags for one important reason,
when hell has no more room, the dead will walk the earth.
Zombies man, that is one of the biggest reasons we need firearms for protection.
June 29, 2007 at 4:46 pm
robnesvacil
Folks…. the “heebie-jeebies” line was an attempt to inject a little humor into a deadly serious topic.
It came via this passage in :
The latest bit of drama came when Kotowski’s life was threatened. According to a spokesman, Kotowski turned over information, including copies of faxes, to the Illinois State Police, that his staff believed contained threatening material. Most of the calls and faxes were received by Kotowski’s staff (and volunteers, including his mother), so he left it up to them to decide which material to forward to the coppers, the spokesman said.
Some of those faxes were sent by a guy who didn’t actually threaten Kotowski. That person was visited by the police and ISRA tried to get out in front of the story earlier this week by claiming that Kotowski was infringing on its members’ First Amendment free speech rights.
(emphasis added)
June 29, 2007 at 4:47 pm
robnesvacil
C-Rock,
Non-felon would be a person who has never been convicted of a crime, no? You sure do have a way of twisting words into meanings that were never intended….
June 29, 2007 at 6:35 pm
papabear47(WLC)
I would like to continue reading your scintillating and truthfull(sark) posts however I have to finish reloading a few hundred .45 ACP and .44 Specials so my sons and I can knock down a swarm of steel plates at our local LEO range….Dats right duh cops love honest citizens who may some day come to their assistance….And you are much to Clintonish for my taste…..
June 29, 2007 at 6:42 pm
papabear47(WLC)
I forgot….How do you continue to distort what is being said….The Constitutition in no way condones such acts libel,fraud,slander, in point of fact I do agree with such statutes and many more that are on the books. You shw me where I have actually stated differently without using what I think is rather twisted logic.
June 30, 2007 at 11:40 am
c-rockjr121
So are you considering yourself a non-felon? Or just everyone else?
June 30, 2007 at 8:26 pm
papabear47(WLC)
Steel plates would consider me felon maximus as I hit every target out to 125 yrds with my redhawk .44 mag….Otherwise I consider myself a non felon and so think the leo’s I shoot arround and occasionally with or I would be persona non grata at the range.
July 1, 2007 at 3:47 pm
c-rockjr121
I see myself as a citizen first and foremost. Non-felon doesn’t sound right to me.
.44 mag? You need to get one of those .500 S&W, and make folks like Rob get scared from your ownership of one. Heck, he might wet himself if he knew folks owned such.
July 1, 2007 at 5:31 pm
robnesvacil
C-Rock,
Like Papabear and yourself (I presume) I am not a felon, ie, I am a non-felon. It’s a commonly used word, C-Rock.
Are you really this petty about the English language? Like you, I’m also a citizen first and foremost — but I haven’t committed any felonies so I’m also a non-felon. Being a non-felon, I could purchase a firearm if I wanted.
Unlike you, apparently, I don’t wet myself at the first sign of a challenge or disagreement.
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Papabear, just because you don’t understand logic it doesn’t mean it’s twisted. But you proved my point, in saying that you do support curbs on our Constitutional rights (in this particular example, our right to free speech — which really isn’t truly universal, as both you and I agree it ought not be lest we have a bunch of frauds and liars running around).
I find it curious that you agree with those and “many more” statutes that are on the books which place common sense oversights (some might even call them “restrictions”) on 9 of the 10 Bill of Rights… but you have such a problem with any legislation which may seek other such reasonable supervisions on just one (the 2nd, it would appear).
You say I’m too “Clintonish” for you, as if that’s some sort of insult (he was among the more popular and well-liked presidents in recent decades).
Since you care to play that game I must say you remind me of my toddler. Every now and then he gins up a good ol’ fashioned inconsolable tantrum crabbing “No. No. No.” to everything I say or ask, until I ask “Do you just want to keep saying ‘No’ over and over?” … and then he gets confused by his own toddler-logic.
Have fun shooting with your boys. Godspeed hitting those steel targets.
July 2, 2007 at 12:01 am
papabear47(WLC)
I give you credit for your tenacious attitude….I studied logic over forty years ago and like style it seems to change as time passes,however one with true logic will look at things as they are, not as they wish they were and understand why there is a differance. While styles change style itself is immutable and the same with logic. Of course that depends on what the definition of”IS”is.
We both agree on more than free speach,you simply have to ask me and not place me in a particular niche as I am not what you seem to think.The third Amendment protects us from the unlawfull intrusion of troops into our homes…..As a veteran I understand why.
Our Fourth Amd. rights have been and and continue to be trampled on.GWB is in my opinion is verry close to LBJ and R.M.Nixon with respect to ignoring if not destroying this right.
The Fifth Amd. is abused quite often as when a LEO is permitted a lawyer during a grand jury hearing while any other citizen is denied one. Forced confessions as in several of those death row cases here in Illinois a few years ago.DNA evidence determined their innocense. And the taking of private property for the purpose of increasing tax revenue or pleasing big business and gaining campaign donations.
The Sixth Amd. Well lets just say that a paid informent whose identity must be protected gives your name and address as a meth lab,illegal weapons source and chop shop and you find yourself face to face with a screaming masked man/woman with an MP5 pointed at your head at 3 am….Right, you are innocent and this is not determined after the cops trash your home,garage and whatever else they damn well please. Now you spent two or three months in and out of court defending yourself from false charges and not one were you or your lawyer permitted to concront your accuser.(personal experience of a neighbor). And quite often a judge will not permit exculpitory evidence as that might prevent a conviction.
The Seventh Amd. Many people are talked into a bench trial insted of a jury for what the are told is a petty offence and find themselves facing prison time.Demand a jury trial,do not take a chance thinking that you will face a reasonable judge.
The Eigth Amd. Bails are often set high for the poor to force them into a plea bargain,guilt is not important and innocense is means nothing. People are treated cruely and tortued very often and little is done.(Congressman George Hansen)
The Ninth Amd.”The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people” ….That means to me that all of these rights are equal.
The Tenth Amd.”The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution,nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively,or the people” How many times has the Federal Government trampled on this amendment.
The First and Second Amdts. Seem to be under attack by those who would like us to believe all they tell us and if necessary force us to do as they want.
I voted for GW the first time withe a twinge.”Compassionate Conservative” As if Conservatives as a whole are red meat eating mongrels.The second time because Kerry was even less desirable than GW….I am tired of voting for the lesser of two evils…
As for clinto being so popular….Get real.Even Reagan beats him,and he was not my favorite.
We need another Teddy Roosevelt,few flaws,many fine attributes.
By the way I am 60+ and a Disabled Vet who has a low tollerance for whiners and malcontents. My world view is differant than yours because we have walked ( I have crawled,shattered bones that reall hurt)different paths,my mountains were not to high the vallys were sometimes hot and dry but a cool swim in the river of hope and I was back on my way….
The analogy of your child and myself was somewhat ammusing….And I will be like yor toddler in one respect I will continue saying no,no,no, when I am not in agreement with a given idea.
I hope your child and my grand children do not grow up in an ultra Left or radical Right world, neither philosophy would be kind to them.
We fired over eight hundred rounds.four semi autos three revolvers. I had one miss at 125 yds with my .44 out of 50 rounds fired.My sons beat every Leo there at long range and did very well at the tatical portions that I cannot participate in….Now I will be prepping and reloading for three days so we can go fishing on the weekend with the grandsons….Veritus.
July 2, 2007 at 8:47 am
robnesvacil
Papabear, my point now (as it was before) was that you (and I) agree to certain “restrictions” on certain of our Constitutional rights in order to maintain as peaceful and orderly a society as we can. No system is perfect, but ours (as I’m sure you’d agree) is best.
The bone of contention between folks of your inclination and those with whom I agree is that you feel any restrictions on 2A is detrimental to peace and order whereas I believe certain oversights are needed given the current state of affairs regarding gun violence.
It’s about degrees of acceptability. You are accepting some restrictions on our rights, but not others, as am I. This was the point I was trying to make ‘logically’ through my example.
I too am working to avoid a “radicalized” future for future generations, either extreme liberal or conservative … which is why (in part) I write. But it’s difficult swimming upstream when libertarians slug you in the face for seeking reasonable firearms oversight, hence any sort of tenaciousness you may sense.
Sorry to hear of your missed target. Hope the fish are biting.
July 2, 2007 at 9:55 am
robnesvacil
PS Papabear, Glock21 puts it more clearly than I in his response to my earlier post.
Says Glock21:
July 2, 2007 at 5:15 pm
papabear47(WLC)
As I have already stated,The Constitution is the supreme law of the land and I believe that any person who would bastardize it to promote unjustified violence in order to satisfy a personal agenda should be held accountable in a court of law.
Glock 21 is correct when he states that the governed in some instances have created what I would calla paradoxical situation for themselves,they want a strong solid and immutable Constitution when it suits them and something less when it does not….There is a dichotomy among firearms owners that does not aid our cause….Those who want no restrictions and those would compromise the 2 Amd.into oblivion. I do not agree with either,as an inherant right does carry with it the ability to tread on our three most valuable rights,Life,Liberty and the persuit of happiness….I do not believe in “Common sence” gun laws because that phrase is to vague and laws should not be written in so vague a manner as to continualy require interpritation.Laws worded thusly are the handiwork of our lawyer polititions and helps them to stay in office playing one side of the same coin off the other.
“Light and transient causes” “All experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer”….I would like to know the source for these quotes especialy since what is important to me may not mean anything to another and visa versa….”Suffer”,suffer what,the requirement that a fee be paid for what one considersa right.Or suffer inprisonment and even death for standing up for ones rights….Freedom is a myth perpitrated by those who wish to be free,free to do as they please denying others freedoms.
‘